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accessibility_fail2010-04-01 09:03 am
jenett) wrote in accessibility_fail2010-04-01 09:03 am
Looking at hotels for future conferences
So, a friend and I did two hotel visits yesterday to look at possible sites for a new small convention for spring of 2011. One of them is a hotel I've worked with before (for another small convention in a different area of interest), and who continued to be fantastic in this conversation.
The other hotel we looked at because people kept bringing it up to us. And .. not so much a success. I include details for amusement, and in case they're useful to anyone else looking at this kind of thing.
Background: the convention in question is designed to be a small Pagan-focused convention.
We're guessing (given that this will be our first year) that we'll have about 100-150 people, want 3-4 programming rooms, a music space, and because I am a wise apprentice in the art of hotel negotiations, we're looking at a couple of food function options.
Our community - like most - includes people with a range of chronic medical issues
- a few folks who use scooters or wheelchairs
- a number who strongly prefer to avoid stairs in at least one direction.
- a bunch of general 'my mobility's not what it was, so while I can do stairs/walk distance, I'd rather not spend all my spoons for the day doing that'
- people with a wide range of food needs (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, dairy-free, etc.)
- a range of hearing and visual impairments, which mostly don't come into play immediately, but which I'm keeping in mind as we consider how to set up room spaces.
- people with a range of scent preferences: some people who use scent as pain and focus management tools, some people who have scent allergies. Attention to how wide-spread chlorine scent from the pool is falls here.
First Hotel
Having run an event here last summer, I know what they have to offer, that their handicapped accessible spaces are actually navigable that way, that they're even better than they say they are at handling food limitations, and that they're easy and comfortable to work with. They're also actively excited about the idea of doing another conference a bit outside their norm, which is always nice.
There's one point of accessibility that's not ideal: 8 steps from the level down from one likely area of programming to the other, but there's both a small chair lift, and it's possible to go briefly outside and in at the next door without having any stairs. I wish they'd put in a ramp instead, but the space is a bit tight, and I can see why they don't. However, elevators are very convenient, as are bathrooms on both sides of that set of stairs, so people can limit crossing that space if they wish/need.
Me and my friend
I'm dealing with still-pretty-acute medical issues that include fatigue (so while I look pretty normal, I'm not doing things that take more energy than they need to right now: elevator instead of stairs, because it'll get me another 15-30 minutes of brain that day.) The friend with me is in her 60s and has visibly stiff joints.
Also, even if these things weren't true, I believe in testing exactly how long it takes the elevator to show up and how awkward it is to use to get between areas of the hotel, because you can usually figure out the stairs just by looking and figuring out where they come out.
Second hotel
- Mentioning that we're a Pagan group got a blank look and a "Can you repeat that?" with an emotional shut-down. (She got my polite-but-"This really isn't that much different than any other SF or other convention in terms of what we want from a hotel" response.)
- Despite the sales woman actively commenting on my friend's stiffness (obvious when getting into/out of a chair), and my saying "We'd really rather take the elevator, please", it doesn't stick: I have to *keep* saying it, and asking about it. And I keep asking questions about access and options.
- She leads us the very long way around the building. (it's basically a figure 8 shape) which, again, not so much with convincing me about the accessibility considerations.
- I could smell the chlorine from the indoor pool halfway down the hallway leading to it, which is So Not A Good Sign.
- Having stairs with no convenient elevator nearby between the two areas of likely con space is Really Not a Good Move.
- The standard bathrooms are tiny - they're a toilet at one end, and a step-in shower stall at the other, with what I'd guess is the bare minimum width. (You have to stand over the toilet and close the door to get to the shower: the door takes up all the spare space in the bathroom when it's open). There are rooms with more space in the bathrooms - it's an older hotel built in phases - but I honestly don't trust either them or people registering to keep track of this adequately, and it's just asking for difficulty at the event itself.
- And finally, when I get to looking at their menu packet, there aren't even a lot of options for vegetarians listed, let along anything more complex than that. (As opposed to First Hotel, who have a fairly standard menu, but include a variety of common alternative options, and make it clear in large friendly letters that they're particularly skilled in dealing with kosher, vegetarian, and vegan needs, and actively delighted by coming up with yummy alternatives for other needs.)
The actual convention space isn't bad, but it isn't fantastic either, for various reasons. So it's not like that's a huge win worth overriding the rest of it.
The other hotel we looked at because people kept bringing it up to us. And .. not so much a success. I include details for amusement, and in case they're useful to anyone else looking at this kind of thing.
Background: the convention in question is designed to be a small Pagan-focused convention.
We're guessing (given that this will be our first year) that we'll have about 100-150 people, want 3-4 programming rooms, a music space, and because I am a wise apprentice in the art of hotel negotiations, we're looking at a couple of food function options.
Our community - like most - includes people with a range of chronic medical issues
- a few folks who use scooters or wheelchairs
- a number who strongly prefer to avoid stairs in at least one direction.
- a bunch of general 'my mobility's not what it was, so while I can do stairs/walk distance, I'd rather not spend all my spoons for the day doing that'
- people with a wide range of food needs (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, dairy-free, etc.)
- a range of hearing and visual impairments, which mostly don't come into play immediately, but which I'm keeping in mind as we consider how to set up room spaces.
- people with a range of scent preferences: some people who use scent as pain and focus management tools, some people who have scent allergies. Attention to how wide-spread chlorine scent from the pool is falls here.
First Hotel
Having run an event here last summer, I know what they have to offer, that their handicapped accessible spaces are actually navigable that way, that they're even better than they say they are at handling food limitations, and that they're easy and comfortable to work with. They're also actively excited about the idea of doing another conference a bit outside their norm, which is always nice.
There's one point of accessibility that's not ideal: 8 steps from the level down from one likely area of programming to the other, but there's both a small chair lift, and it's possible to go briefly outside and in at the next door without having any stairs. I wish they'd put in a ramp instead, but the space is a bit tight, and I can see why they don't. However, elevators are very convenient, as are bathrooms on both sides of that set of stairs, so people can limit crossing that space if they wish/need.
Me and my friend
I'm dealing with still-pretty-acute medical issues that include fatigue (so while I look pretty normal, I'm not doing things that take more energy than they need to right now: elevator instead of stairs, because it'll get me another 15-30 minutes of brain that day.) The friend with me is in her 60s and has visibly stiff joints.
Also, even if these things weren't true, I believe in testing exactly how long it takes the elevator to show up and how awkward it is to use to get between areas of the hotel, because you can usually figure out the stairs just by looking and figuring out where they come out.
Second hotel
- Mentioning that we're a Pagan group got a blank look and a "Can you repeat that?" with an emotional shut-down. (She got my polite-but-"This really isn't that much different than any other SF or other convention in terms of what we want from a hotel" response.)
- Despite the sales woman actively commenting on my friend's stiffness (obvious when getting into/out of a chair), and my saying "We'd really rather take the elevator, please", it doesn't stick: I have to *keep* saying it, and asking about it. And I keep asking questions about access and options.
- She leads us the very long way around the building. (it's basically a figure 8 shape) which, again, not so much with convincing me about the accessibility considerations.
- I could smell the chlorine from the indoor pool halfway down the hallway leading to it, which is So Not A Good Sign.
- Having stairs with no convenient elevator nearby between the two areas of likely con space is Really Not a Good Move.
- The standard bathrooms are tiny - they're a toilet at one end, and a step-in shower stall at the other, with what I'd guess is the bare minimum width. (You have to stand over the toilet and close the door to get to the shower: the door takes up all the spare space in the bathroom when it's open). There are rooms with more space in the bathrooms - it's an older hotel built in phases - but I honestly don't trust either them or people registering to keep track of this adequately, and it's just asking for difficulty at the event itself.
- And finally, when I get to looking at their menu packet, there aren't even a lot of options for vegetarians listed, let along anything more complex than that. (As opposed to First Hotel, who have a fairly standard menu, but include a variety of common alternative options, and make it clear in large friendly letters that they're particularly skilled in dealing with kosher, vegetarian, and vegan needs, and actively delighted by coming up with yummy alternatives for other needs.)
The actual convention space isn't bad, but it isn't fantastic either, for various reasons. So it's not like that's a huge win worth overriding the rest of it.
no subject
When you let people know about Hotel 1's drawbacks in advance, they can plan. Perhaps your concom might want to organize some loaner wheelchairs so folks like, um, you, don't even have to do spoon calculus during the event?
Terminology review: a "chair lift" takes skiers up mountains. Those little uncomfortable seats that ride on a track bolted to the sidewall of a staircase are "stair lifts." I'm hoping the hotel has a "platform lift." Also, would it be OK to link this conversation at
no subject
And yes - we definitely do intend to do lots of useful communication in advance. We've done that for previous events for the same org, so people have also started to get used to looking for it.
(We're doing some interim transition stuff this year, and our location for *that* event, as opposed to the next-spring one I'm talking about above, is very non-ideal from a stair mobility standpoint.
We're going to be very clear about that, and very clear about the fact that it's a one year choice brought about by a combination of financial sustainability + wanting to support a related community center (the space). We're working on the FAQs about that right now, so we can be as clear as possible up front, and talk the fact that we're doing this so that future options can sustain themselves financially *and* have better access options for everyone.
(re: me and spoons: I desperately hope that I will have more available spoons in a year, and it does look reasonably plausible, but I'll make a note of inquiring about options.)
One thing not noted above is that I'm pretty committed to trying to do real-time captioning for whatever larger-speaker-type event we do, but that's something that mostly isn't a factor in the hotel-negotiation stage just yet other than checking on screen costs.
no subject
Best wishes with the "not this year" access issue. I've certainly been in that position, with deep regret.
Another plus to bountiful communications is it can outsource community leadership from one or two "in the know" types to "every member who's read the program guide."
I'd be delighted if I can lend you the benefits of my experiences.
no subject
I should probably mention, since it'd be helpful here: I have yet to make it to Wiscon, which occurs on of the weekends it is *hardest* for me to make it out of town, with the current work commitments (school librarian = all sorts of fun year-end things and extra evening events the following week that make travel extra-specially-not-a-great-move)
But that I've been a good friend of
(That, plus knowing a whole lot of people with not-quite-obvious accessibility needs, or where the ones people keep thinking would help don't actually, has gotten me reasonably good at thinking through which things need additional attention.)
All of which is balanced by looking at other things for the good of the org, which is what leads to things like this fall's choice, and the delight that we're doing this so we can do better for long-term sustainability that give us many more options in the future even if the lack of elevator in the fall building really does cause limits.
You might find our last year's event access information of either use or amusement: http://tcpaganpride.org/info/eventinfo/specificneeds/ (it's linked from the main event info page, as well. Joys of dealing with elderly buildings and a less than ideal set-up for physical spaces.)
no subject
* scattered jesse is scattered *
It will be there tomorrow :<
Thanks for your kind comments re: WisCon.
The Pagan Pride info is lovely (and the logo is beautiful!)
no subject
I very much like the logo: it was done by a local quite a few years ago, and gifted to the org, and we use it on tons of things, because it really is that gorgeous.)
no subject
no subject
(However, if anyone is looking at planning events in the Minneapolis area, and wants to know before I make further notes, I'm glad to discuss in email/PM/etc.)